tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29680163.post5323224157945621429..comments2024-02-28T12:04:11.837-08:00Comments on Jesus in Love Blog: Epiphany: 3 kings or 3 queens?Kittredge Cherryhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02617858676733169316noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29680163.post-46805424297327530792010-02-04T20:58:19.127-08:002010-02-04T20:58:19.127-08:00Yes, Yewtree, I included that quote because I like...Yes, Yewtree, I included that quote because I like it so much -- and because "our Tribe" is hard to find now.<br /><br />I thought it was out of print, but I just discovered that it IS available again. Here's a link to it on Amazon:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060693967?ie=UTF8&tag=jesusinloveor-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0060693967" rel="nofollow">Our Tribe: Queer Folks, God, Jesus, and the Bible</a>Kittredge Cherryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02617858676733169316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29680163.post-50928788775962786342010-02-01T13:35:28.085-08:002010-02-01T13:35:28.085-08:00Lovely image - I like Janet McKenzie's style, ...Lovely image - I like Janet McKenzie's style, it's quite gentle and a bit Art Deco. And these Three Queens are very goddessy. What's not to like?<br /><br />I love this quote, <em>Also, the wise eunuchs, shamans, holy men were the only ones who had the forethought to go shopping before they visited the baby Jesus!</em> -- Yup, so obviously they were women or gay, because otherwise they'd have just gone to the gas station for a bunch of flowers wrapped in cellophane ;)Yewtreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02028699564003381058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29680163.post-23445986829392768702010-01-12T16:03:10.391-08:002010-01-12T16:03:10.391-08:00Based on Trudie's recommendation, I added a li...Based on Trudie's recommendation, I added a link to "The Other Wise Man" to the main post.Kittredge Cherryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02617858676733169316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29680163.post-70362170807345968332010-01-08T18:44:31.642-08:002010-01-08T18:44:31.642-08:00Michael, happy new year! It’s great to hear from ...Michael, happy new year! It’s great to hear from you, and thanks for the link to your in-depth post connecting the Magi to today’s astrologers. I do think the idea of “three kings” was easier for a triumphalist Christianity than astrologers or even wise men. Even today kings get a lot more respect than wise men and women.Kittredge Cherryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02617858676733169316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29680163.post-55152829025757345052010-01-08T04:44:16.114-08:002010-01-08T04:44:16.114-08:00I wonder whether the popular conception of the Mag...I wonder whether the popular conception of the Magi as kings was allowed to develop because it was easier for a triumphalist Christanity to accept than that, as Magi, they were 'pagan' priests and astrologers. Presumably when they left Bethlehem they went back home to resume their priestly duties and their astrological work. There's nothing in the story to suggest otherwise.<br /><br />I've written something about that here<br /><br />http://michaelcardensjottings.blogspot.com/2010/01/for-epiphany-some-thoughts-on-star-of.htmlMichaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15356422488538820280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29680163.post-31485024414872484032010-01-07T14:42:04.952-08:002010-01-07T14:42:04.952-08:00I love hearing the stories that REALLY move people...I love hearing the stories that REALLY move people at Christmastime. Thank you, Turtle Woman, Eric and Trudie for sharing the simple, meaningful moments.<br /><br />Turtle, you must have been a gorgeous baby-dyke King!<br /><br />Eric, I believe that your mom is with Jesus and the little drummer boy. It reminds me -- lesbian theologian Mary Daly died recently at age 81. I heard that her caregivers were reading one of her books to her as she died. As an author, my first reaction was: I don’t want somebody reading one of my books to me when I die! I’d rather hear music, and Little Drummer Boy would do.<br /><br />Trudie, I never heard to the “The Other Wise Man,” so I’ll check that out. Today’s L.A. Times had an article about a lovely Mexican tradition for “Three Kings Day” -- pastry called “rosca,” shaped like a crown, with plastic baby Jesus hidden inside the dough to represent him hiding from King Herod. Maybe with your Latino connections you’ve eaten rosca? I hope to visit one the nearby Mexican bakeries next Epiphany so I can try a rosca.Kittredge Cherryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02617858676733169316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29680163.post-68525670946644304952010-01-07T06:02:18.721-08:002010-01-07T06:02:18.721-08:00I love all the commentary exchange prompted by thi...I love all the commentary exchange prompted by this most delightful post. The one bit I wanted to add is a cherished memory of my own, Eric, because at Christmas time each year when I was a child, my Dad used to read to us The Story of the Other Wise Man by Henry van Dyke. Beautiful story, for anyone who hasn't read it!Trudiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17866513608442388870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29680163.post-35184470735959689362010-01-06T15:53:00.439-08:002010-01-06T15:53:00.439-08:00All good points, Kitt.
As an aside, I love The Li...All good points, Kitt.<br /><br />As an aside, I love The Little Drummer Boy. Mom & I shared wonderful times listening to it. It was her favorite Christmas time song, and as a result it became mine, as well.<br /><br />As her health deteriorated due to Alzheimers, I played it for her over and over again... she always smiled, and her eyes would water.<br /><br />Now, it always brings tears to me at Christmas, as I imagine her literally in the presence of the baby Jesus with the little drummer boy playing his pit-a-pat rhythms.erichttp://www.scottneric.com/abteric.htmlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29680163.post-67960571756340659802010-01-06T15:48:14.853-08:002010-01-06T15:48:14.853-08:00I love this painting of the three women magi, and ...I love this painting of the three women magi, and I definitely can relate to eric's insightful comment that the three kings might have been three lesbians pretending to be kings. When I was a little girl... our neighborhood always did a Christmas play. For a few years, I lobbied hard to be one of the three kings. This was circa 1966, and luckily for me, the 12 year old "director" of our nativity play gave the go ahead. Naturally, I wanted to be the king bearing GOLD! So there I was in a turban carrying a box with gold chocolate coins in it, and was as happy as can be. Later, I came out as a lesbian, so Eric, what you said was true, I was a little lesbian pretending to be one of the three kings! Thanks for reminding me of my own lesbian past!! :-) Oh, and the song we used as we walked in: "We Three Kings"-- my all time favorite Christmas carol, we had the good scratchy record version! Just wait long enough and maybe I really will get to be king of lesbian nation :-)Turtle Womannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29680163.post-6677284920546999792010-01-06T15:36:45.197-08:002010-01-06T15:36:45.197-08:00Ann, thanks for the link to a lovely Christian art...Ann, thanks for the link to a lovely Christian art blog. The painting certainly LOOKS like a girl Jesus, but I’m not sure that’s what the artist intends. It’s often that way. I’m going to return to the Image and Spirit Blog to see more.<br /><br />Eric, thanks for another helpful comment. I used to focus mostly on the gender of God, but lately I’ve come to see the value of re-envisioning the followers of God. It opens up the stories in all kinds of ways.<br /><br />There are other wonderful sides to the story of the Magi--following the star, bringing the gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh…<br /><br />Maybe the Magi didn’t exist in history, but neither did the “Little Drummer Boy.” And yet thousands of people are moved by the story of how he visits the newborn Christ and says,<br /><br />“Little Baby, I am a poor boy too. I have no gift to bring that's fit to give the King. Shall I play for you, on my drum?”Kittredge Cherryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02617858676733169316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29680163.post-73494483422753761902010-01-06T15:17:20.963-08:002010-01-06T15:17:20.963-08:00Hi Kitt,
I didn't intend to suggest that the ...Hi Kitt,<br /><br />I didn't intend to suggest that the Magi weren't human. My suggestion is really more that we really know so little about them, indeed there is considerable question as to whether or not they even existed.<br /><br />They are in the gospel for a reason. Their coming to see Jesus, gifts in hand, has something to teach us. The author of the story had one message, but we may be able to draw many others.<br /><br />Each gender or orientation that we place on the Magi helps us to unwrap that message in a new, refreshing way.<br /><br />My point about God of course is that God transcends all labelling. The Magi do not. But understanding their story from the different perspectives might enable us to learn something.erichttp://www.scottneric.com/abteric.htmlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29680163.post-16803312828312939122010-01-06T15:04:47.159-08:002010-01-06T15:04:47.159-08:00Girl Jesus? Image and Spirit blog hereGirl Jesus? Image and Spirit blog <a href="http://imageandspirit.blogspot.com/2010/01/were-following-star-6.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>Annhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07287169546184325690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29680163.post-87306651203294214642010-01-06T14:40:01.083-08:002010-01-06T14:40:01.083-08:00Ann and Eric, I thank both of you for shedding mor...Ann and Eric, I thank both of you for shedding more light on Epiphany. <br /><br />Ann, it’s helpful to know how the original Greek text treats gender. I agree that women were probably present, even when only men are mentioned in the text -- that goes for ALL the events in the Gospels. Enjoy the Janet McKenzie book! I’m a big fan of Janet and her art.<br /><br />Eric, wow, you’ve raised many pertinent points. Yes, God is beyond gender, we’re both clear about that. The Magi were human, though. Showing them as female may mean taking “artistic license” to change the gender of historical figures, but it is in keeping with the theme of the story -- Christ was born not just for the Jews, but for “outsiders,” and women were outsiders to religious power in ancient Israel. Considering whether they were gay is more of a question of understanding the translation and meaning of “eunuch.”<br /><br />I am amazed at your suggestion, what if the Magi were “3 lesbians ‘pretending’ to be kings?” Wow, three drag kings!<br /><br />I’d love to find some art that explores these queer ossibilities, but I haven’t found any yet. However, the traditional “three kings” do look rather “gay” when you start to think about it.Kittredge Cherryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02617858676733169316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29680163.post-19125981036219538822010-01-06T08:34:46.244-08:002010-01-06T08:34:46.244-08:00Of course it is a story but even if it happened-- ...Of course it is a story but even if it happened-- it is likely women were part of the group, Greek uses the male plural when even one man is present in the group - so we don't know how many people nor their gender. We know they brought 3 recorded gifts and they come from the east. I just ordered the book <a href="http://www.episcopalcafe.com/art/art/holiness_and_the_feminine_spir_2.html" rel="nofollow">Holiness and the Feminine Spirit</a> which features these paintings.Annhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07287169546184325690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29680163.post-7952305799579820802010-01-06T08:32:44.936-08:002010-01-06T08:32:44.936-08:00I've said before, perhaps even in one of my pr...I've said before, perhaps even in one of my previous comments on other posts, that it is ridiculous for us to think of God in specific terms... namely "God is male" or "God is female" Both are accurate, and neither is accurate. God is, to me, male, female, both male & female, and simultaneously neither male nor female. Pick any dichotomous terms we apply to the Divine, and some variation on my opinion holds.<br /><br />And so, for me, it's not important as to whether the Magi are kings, queens, priests, priestesses or whatever.<br /><br />The message, as mentioned in your post, that the Magi shows this event as having wider implications than merely to the Jews is what is most important.<br /><br />But SEEING the Magi as Queens, like seeing them as Kings... or as any other variation... is powerful stuff.<br /><br />When I image them as kings, I consider them with a set of preconceptions that go with power and masculinity (here I mean maleness more than machismo). To image them as queens, necessitates considering a different set of preconceptions... perhaps these might be nurturing or "secondary power"... the idea that yes, as queens they possess the power of that status but (here I use what I hope is not my own mind-set but that of the era) still women, and thus somehow LESS powerful.... to be respected, but perhaps with a certain disdain...<br /><br />Yeah, I'm a guy, and so I probably am possessed of some degree of chauvinism here, even while attempting to dispel it.<br /><br />What I'm really trying to say is this... no matter what they were, it can only broaden our perspective and understanding to view "fixed" events with eyes opened to new and disparate possibilities.<br /><br />I can just see the 3 magi as totally effeminate gays! What would that say about the event? What if they were brutish warriors, instead? 3 prostitutes? 3 lesbians "pretending" to be kings?<br /><br />Each imaging brings new potential insight.erichttp://www.scottneric.com/abteric.htmlnoreply@blogger.com